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TJ 595 & 1050
Newcastle & Hunter,
Australia
Posts: 106
Daytona T595 (97-98)
28 Aug 2008 15:50 |
Hi Tony,
I'm running a 10% ethanol blend in my S3 1050, and I've just noticed in another thread that when tuning, E10 blends make things interesting...
I am very interested in this and results/conclusions you've come to with this. The E10 I run is 91RON regular with Ethanol added, raising octane up to 95RON. My mechanic is quite talented and quite good with his dyno tuning however he is rather wary of ethanol blended fuels due to lack of experience with them. He was intrigued when my lightly modded S3 (free-er flowing exhaust) matched his micron & PC3 equipped S3 in power output. Mine running a modded hybrid tune.
Have you noticed differences in measured outputs for similar/same bikes/engines running unblended vs blended fuels?
And what differences has ethanol blended/oxygenated fuels shown up when dyno tuning?
From a pseudo scientific perspective, I'm guessing that in some conditions the AFR reading reads lean due to extra oxygen in the fuel - am I on the right track?
Or is it coming up as richer due to more a more thorough combustion of the fuel?
All my local testing has been on a DJ250 dyno. And whilst I belive FACTORYPRO's propaganda, I do appreciate that DJ Dynos are useful for improving performance and they're better than nothing. And there' are no Factory Pro dynos within 3000km of here.
Cheers.
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 X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,844
Premier Member
Enthusiast
28 Aug 2008 17:19 |
I've yet to tune an engine with E10 fuel but basically the use of ethanol will mean that the a/f will show up as being slightly lean as more air is required to burn the ethanol part so you need a richer mixture (pure ethanol needs a 9. to 1 mixture for stoich for instance). So you would get results that show up lean problems rather than rich IYSWIM. So I can't honestly tell you what we have found cos we haven't done one to the best of my knowledge. Even if we have I tune to power not a/f (I just use it as a base reference). Ignition needs to be less for E10 fuels as well.
Your hybrid tune will probably have ignition values changed which will make quite a diference when compared to a PC3 tuned motor which will only have fuelling changed. Its not really a fair comparrison unless he uses some method of altering ignition values. You may find that retarding the ignition a little improves power using the E10 fuel.
We are dynojet cos thats what I bought. Its used for comparison purposes to see if changes we make make the bike worse or better with a load of common sense thrown in. I don't believe or disbelieve Factory Pro's propaganda, we have a Dynojet so thats what we use. I wonder how they extrapolate the 02 reading when burning E10 fuels?
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TJ 595 & 1050
Newcastle & Hunter,
Australia
Posts: 106
Daytona T595 (97-98)
28 Aug 2008 17:44 |
Interesting...
My understanding is that straight ethanol has a faster flame speed than petrol, hence a faster flame front when combusted. This led me to believe that E10 may burn faster than petrol, and hence benefit from ignition advance (provided additional fuel is added). Hmmm... I'll look into testing a reduced level of advance whilst running E10. Food for thought.
My mechanic is obviously a PC3 dealer, however is open minded and was curious to see how TUNE EDIT compared results wise.
Actually, I'm looking to have the S3 remapped to suit a new exhaust I'll be fitting soon. I would like to know, have you remapped any 1050 models using Tune Edit and Tuning Link emulation? I ask because several years back I did have my T595 remapped via Tuning Link however it did have some problems in the process. I'm obviously interested if the process has increased with the new keihn ECUs and later versions of Tune Edit.
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,844
Premier Member
Enthusiast
28 Aug 2008 19:12 |
Nope, we don't use tuning link as we don't have a 250 only a 200 (no load cell). We do it all by hand.
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trevski
canterbury,
New Zealand
Posts: 664
Speed Triple T509 (97-98)
29 Aug 2008 08:53 |
tj, if the E10 burns faster than normal fuel, then you would need to retard the ignition a bit....not advance it.
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TJ 595 & 1050
Newcastle & Hunter,
Australia
Posts: 106
Daytona T595 (97-98)
30 Aug 2008 14:21 |
Hmmm... for some reason in my mind it made sense to advance the ignition slightly and increase the fuelling to those same areas... You guys are making me think twice...
Unfortunately there seems to be sweet FA info available on tuning for performance with E10 blends. I know I could just harden up and use regular premium fuel, but at the current prices of fuel here in Oz, the E10 works out between 8-11 cents a litre cheaper than premium blends 15 cents if compared to 98RON. While that's barely $1.80 a tank it does add up at 3-4 tanks a week, it does add up over the course of a month, and year.
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,844
Premier Member
Enthusiast
30 Aug 2008 15:26 |
I can assure you that my information whilst not first hand, is reliable and you need to richen the mixture and retard the ignition for best performance.
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 69
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 02:18 |
Advance vs. retard all depends on the octane of the fuel. While it is true that adding 10% alcohol to gasoline will raise the octane by 2-3 points, this will not gain you a thing if it was added to gasoline that had very low octane to begin with. Having to richen with E10 vs. what would be ideal for normal gasoline has to do with the oxygen present in the alcohol and the ratio alcohol likes to run at by itself.
Regards,
Derek
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 69
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 02:23 |
[edited]:
X-Man:
I've yet to tune an engine with E10 fuel but basically the use of ethanol will mean that the a/f will show up as being slightly lean as more air is required to burn the ethanol part so you need a richer mixture (pure ethanol needs a 9. to 1 mixture for stoich for instance). |
You must have meant, "as less air is required to burn the ethanol part, so...". Right?
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,844
Premier Member
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 10:13 |
[edited]:
.
can't be arsed.
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 69
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 18:13 |
I don't know what that means.
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,844
Premier Member
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 18:20 |
it means I started to write a reply but gave up because it was too much trouble.
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Reaper
Adelaide S.A,
Australia
Posts: 310
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02CE, 03)
31 Aug 2008 22:47 |
lol
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 69
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 23:02 |
X-Man:
it means I started to write a reply but gave up because it was too much trouble. |
Thanks for the translation, but I don't understand why a response should be too much trouble.
Regards,
Derek
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Reaper
Adelaide S.A,
Australia
Posts: 310
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02CE, 03)
01 Sep 2008 02:01 |
X-man is well regarded on this site for his knowledge and openly shares this with others, and from the 2 posts which i have been following, it seems you wish to discredit him at any given chance, It may very well be that you yourself are similar to X, in sharing your knowledge and may see apparent flaws in the explanations by X-man. however healthy the discussion may appear, i guess if you are questioned/discredited at every post, id be saying "I cant be arsed" as well.
Not that this should stop you from posting as it appears you have considerable knowledge in this area, and im sure we can only benifit from this. Do you have any maps for 03 Tona that you would be prepered to post on the KB for others to use as a starting point in thier quest for tuning greatness?
Reaps..
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