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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
25 Aug 2008 06:29 |
Here's a link to some before and after TuneEdit massaging dyno charts: http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=220 (scroll down for chart key, click image for high res view). Points of interest are that the injectors were horribly mismatched before even the first run, and that the stock ignition map was overadvanced around the torque peak even with the 100 octane fuel. I did not run the engine on the dyno before cleaning/flow & pattern testing/matching the injectors, because I had a hunch that they might be mismatched (every Triumph set I've seen has been so far) and this, in conjunction with the overadvanced ignition timing, can cause detonation (seen that before too) which could be bad enough to lead to damage. In other words, the gains are more than is indicated by the before graph. Also noteworthy is that the load readings didn't work in the real time mode, so I had to use the non real time mode for tuning ignition (which is a bit more laborious).
Regards,
Derek
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Björn
Stuttgart,
Germany
Posts: 12
Premier Member
Speed Triple 955i (02-04)
25 Aug 2008 08:23 |
Hi Derek!
Where is the tune? I cant find it in the KB 
Quote:
and that the stock ignition map was overadvanced around the torque peak even with the 100 octane fuel. |
I don't think so. Experience of many (including me) show, that the ignition can be safely advanced about 5 degree over the complete map w/o preignition and 95 octane fuel. I run up to 8 degree in midrange w/o any problems. Maybe someone fiddled about the timings of your map before?
/Björn
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DVS2XS
Birmingham, AL,
USA
Posts: 445
Premier Member
Speed Triple (05->)
25 Aug 2008 13:13 |
Derek,
YEP, Triumph injector balance... isn't.
Ar you doing your own injector flowing, or sending them out?
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
25 Aug 2008 17:29 |
Björn,
The map in the ECU was stock. It had not even been updated by the dealer. This is not even remotely the first case of overadvanced Triumph ignition timing I've seen. For instance, I just recently tuned a T595 Daytona that came in with a +5º advancer. With the advancer removed, it made more power everywhere at wide open throttle except 3K rpm and below. The dyno does not lie. What method did you use to determine that your engine wants +5º across the board?
DVS2XS,
I'm sending them to FP.
Regards,
Derek
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Björn
Stuttgart,
Germany
Posts: 12
Premier Member
Speed Triple 955i (02-04)
26 Aug 2008 09:33 |
Hi Derek,
I looked at several tunes modified by professional tuning shops who optimized for power. Also I had the chance of talking to two tuners about ignition timings of Triumph engines. They both agreed independently that Triumph is rather on the save side with the timings.
So I decided to advance ign. over the board and did not experience any knock. But now, I am not that confidential any more. How much degree do you retard the original ign. map? What A/F do you use for optimal power? I am running 12.8 - 12.9 on WOT.
Regards
Björn
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
26 Aug 2008 22:15 |
[edited]:
Björn,
What criteria did these tuning shops use to decide that Triumph ignition maps are on the safe side? They certainly are in some areas, but most definitely not in others. How did you go about determining that your engine was not knocking? Just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it's not knocking, nor does it mean it's not overadvanced. In the particular case in question, I retarded the timing 4-5º near the torque peak at wide open throttle. I do not use "A/F ratio". I use 4-gas analysis and once that looks close, I iterate until there is no further improvement from adding or subtracting fuel and/or timing within the resolution of my equipment (one to two tenths of a horsepower).
Regards,
Derek
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 X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
27 Aug 2008 11:20 |
[edited]:
There is a thread on here somewhere that tells the tale of a member who built a knock sensor and then proceeded to advance the ignition until he detected knock.
The sagem has a built in safety net that usues a max ignition table that will not alow the calculated ignition to exceed a set level. Unless you alter this then you will never get unsafe over advance.
We use A/F as a base line to tune to but when tuning for pure power we diddle about the best A/F producing level just to check.
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
27 Aug 2008 17:32 |
X-Man,
While it is true that The Sagem ECU has a built in safety net that uses a max ignition table that will not allow the calculated ignition to exceed a set level, that set level can be too high in an existing stock and unmodified tune, as was the case in this instance. Also, the upper limits are modified when using the trims in TuneEdit.
If you are going to use A/F (and I recommend against it), then "best" A/F must be defined for each intersection of throttle position (or load) and rpm for each combination of parts. You would do this by iterating until you had best power at each of these points. The problem is that by that time, you are already done.
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
27 Aug 2008 18:29 |
Derek, the set level was too high for max power not necesarily too high to cause damage....
I disagree with you about A/F as even with the 4 gas system it only tunes at that throttle opening as does A/F and also for every different part you will have to tune with the 4 gas system as well so there is no difference. As in all things I reckon I could tune an engine using A/F to give the same power as your tune because I don't tune to A/F but to power. In the end we use A/F as an indicator as to what the engine is doing much the same as you use your 4 gas system rather than an absolute. The differebce is (if it indeed a differecne) we can see easier when an engine is lean or rich.
Regards
X-Man
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
27 Aug 2008 19:49 |
[edited]:
X-Man,
If the max advance was too much by 4-5º degrees with 100 octane fuel, then I would most definitely be concerned about damage with pump gas.
I don't understand what is meant by, "I disagree with you about A/F as even with the 4 gas system it only tunes at that throttle opening as does A/F and also for every different part you will have to tune with the 4 gas system as well so there is no difference."
I'm glad to hear that you are tuning to best power. This is definitely a step in the right direction. If that is truly the case, then you've already seen just how unreliable "A/F ratio" really is. 4-gas allows you to get there much quicker, and with fewer mistakes. Any time there is high O2, your system will indicate a lean "A/F ratio". Instances where O2 will be high include ignition related misfires, rich misfires, stagger problems, retarded ignition timing, and leaky exhaust valves. I can easily determine that one of these factors is causing the high O2 instead of a lean mixture, because the balance of the other gasses will give me evidence. I will also not erroneously add fuel under these conditions, since I am looking primarily at CO. You very well might, since you have very little information to help you distinguish these conditions from a real lean condition. Of course the loss in power will show you that you went in the wrong direction, but you will either just go back to where the power was best, not realizing that there was another issue, or, if you did realize there was an issue, you will now have to hunt for it with very few clues.
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
27 Aug 2008 20:46 |
Well, we can certainly see misfires with the a/f kit, we know what a loose/tight chain looks like from the power curve, we can see rich misfires and lean ones with the a/f kit. Stagger problems we are very aware about with tuning triumphs. Of course there are problems that the a/f will not show up but hen you relate the air fuel to the power curve you can deduce quite a lot even down to bad batteries. Its a question of learning (from other sources as well) what to look for from the graph and yes there is an element of guess work at times but often the very fact that the a/f does not alter when you add/subtract fuel gives the game away.
BTW our pump gas is 95/98 octane so we have a little more leeway; mind you the addition of ethanol to some of our pump gas creates and intersting dilema.
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«•Kîng Kêy•»
Essex/London,
United Kingdom
Posts: 12,208
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
27 Aug 2008 22:39 |
Interesting discussion.
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 32
Enthusiast
28 Aug 2008 07:58 |
If the same holds true for other models, the Rocket has different maps for French and German bikes that limit power to 72KW. So maybe the timing on Bjorn's bike was retarded from the factory? Whereas others that have a "full power" tune loaded would have potential to be over-advanced?
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
28 Aug 2008 15:50 |
NOJ84U,
I've not seen a restricted tune for the '02-'04 Speed Triple, whereas I have seen them for the Rocket III and Daytona T595.
Regards,
Derek
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
28 Aug 2008 15:55 |
X-Man,
What, in terms of "A/F ratio", distinguishes an an ignition related misfire from a rich misfire, from a stagger problem, from retarded ignition timing, from a leaky exhaust valve, from a lean misfire, from a small cylinder bore, from a normal lean condition?
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
28 Aug 2008 16:33 |
It depends on what the a/f trace shows against the power and torque traces....sometimes the knowledge comes by normal adjusting the map/ignition; sometimes it comes from others experience that we have access to because we are dynojet approved operators.
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 01:58 |
[edited]:
X-Man,
An ignition related misfire will show a "lean A/F ratio" and reduced power (compared to what?). Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings.
A rich misfire will show a "lean A/F ratio" and reduced power (compared to what?). Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings.
A stagger problem will show a "lean A/F ratio" and reduced power (compared to what?). Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not an overall lean condition that caused the readings.
Retarded ignition timing can show a "lean A/F ratio" and reduced power (compared to what?). Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings.
A leaky exhaust valve will show a "lean A/F ratio". Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings.
A lean misfire will show a "lean A/F ratio" and reduced power (compared to what?). Once you add fuel and horsepower increase, you will know that it was a lean condition that caused the readings.
A small cylinder will show a "lean A/F ratio". Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings.
Many of these cases may make less horsepower than expected by some margin, which will depend not only on the nature of the problem, but on the severity. There is no way to easily predict how much horsepower an engine should/will make, which is compounded by the fact that there can be causes for varying outputs other than the ones already mentioned. I suppose the next strategy would be to subtract fuel, which in the case of the rich misfire, will help (now you are already wasting time experimenting). So, with potentially the same data for four of the above cases (i.e. "lean A/F ratio", possibly less then expected horsepower, no positive response from added fuel, no positive response from subtracted fuel, not a small cylinder), how do you determine which one is the most likely candidate?
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 10:22 |
[edited]:
I buy a Factorypro dyno with a 4 gas analyzer?
for 1: tell me what the power curve looks like and what the a/f trace is in relation to that because without that I can't comment.
etc. etc.
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«•Kîng Kêy•»
Essex/London,
United Kingdom
Posts: 12,208
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
31 Aug 2008 13:25 |
Moto, what do you mean by "A small cylinder will show a "lean A/F ratio". Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings."
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 18:03 |
X-Man:
tell me what the power curve looks like and what the a/f trace is in relation to that because without that I can't comment. etc. etc. |
There is no "A/F trace" to power curve relationship that will distinguish an ignition misfire from a rich misfire from a stagger problem from retarded ignition timing from a leaky exhaust valve from a lean misfire from a small cylinder.
Regards,
Derek
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 18:09 |
«•Kîng Kêy•»:
Moto, what do you mean by "A small cylinder will show a "lean A/F ratio". Once you add fuel and horsepower does not increase, you will know that it was not a lean condition that caused the readings. |
When running correctly, a small cylinder will produce more residual O2 (and therefore show a leaner "A/F ratio") than a larger one.
Regards,
Derek
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 72
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 18:15 |
X-Man:
I buy a Factorypro dyno with a 4 gas analyzer? |
It won't do you much good by itself, as you need steady state in order to get accurate readings.
Regards,
Derek
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 18:17 |
there you go then...perhaps you were just trying to be clever and prove how much better you are than I. Well you suceeded!
We know our limitations and are quite happy to tell our customers that the dyno will only show that you have a problem not always diagnose it for you, but sometimes we can see things from the power trace that gives us clues; re the tight chain and weak battery. We also tell our customers that we can only do our best and will not always succeed because we are fallible.
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Homertrix
South Bucks,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,088
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
31 Aug 2008 18:54 |
X-man, if you're in the market have a look at http://www.dynapro.co.uk/. They have a system that enables you to program the dyno to hold the bike at set grid points; so you can get the dyno to hold the bike at each grid point in the ecu table for a couple of seconds to get steady state readings. I've seen it in action and its bloody good.
So, as an example, you can program it to hold at each RPM point in TuneEdit. Then you whack open the throttle to your required point (e.g. 100%). The dyno will hold it at the first point, then release, then the next point, release, etc. You then have nice clean AFR readings to work against.
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
31 Aug 2008 19:07 |
same as the load cell on a 250i dynojet; its what is used for dynolink and does exactley the same thing for a PC and tuneboy if you use the tuning link patch.
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«•Kîng Kêy•»
Essex/London,
United Kingdom
Posts: 12,208
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
31 Aug 2008 19:25 |
Cheers Moto, I didn't know that.
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Homertrix
South Bucks,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,088
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
31 Aug 2008 19:42 |
from my experience of the load cell, its preset to pciii values. Whereas the dynapro allows you to set whatever you like.
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9,935
Premier Member
Enthusiast
01 Sep 2008 10:04 |
OK, Like I said we don't have a load cell so everything is done by hand as it were.
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